Q, how many babies die on you?

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Jurgen van Spengen

Q, how many babies die on you?

Lead

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Posts: 1612

(07/15/08 10:00:51)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

ok so maybe not the most popular subject but it's something we all have to deal with at some point,

I got curious about the numbers recently as out of my first clutch of 15 animals I only got three feeding, my lack of experience is part of the problem I beleive but this clutch isn't an easy one either, full of runners and animals that won't even strike when totally pissed off,
so I was expecting this and it is now coming true, in the past 4 days I lost three babies,
and I'm guessing several others will follow more or less soon,

this made me wonder what percentage of loss is considered "normal" if any,
I'm not looking for sympathy just facts please,

Jurgen.
p.s. yes I tried all the tricks, the basterds just don't get it, I've been assist feeding pinky heads hoping that would trigger their hunger but nothing so far.

"know how to make a small fortune by breeding chondro's?
start with a large fortune. -Danny Brotto"

Auston Horst

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Posts: 211

(07/15/08 11:01:39)

Forum Chondro Junkie

I read that they eat butterflies in the wild... if you want to try and catch a few..?

-Killer Morelia Keeper-

Marcial

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Posts: 1662

(07/15/08 11:03:42)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

If I get 75% of babies that hatch established, I am happy. Obviously, some clutches will have 100% and others will have 10%, but IME, 75% is a good average.

Marcial Mendez
marcialmendez@hotmail.com
www.chondrolicious.com
www.chondrocoalition.com

Auston Horst

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Posts: 212

(07/15/08 12:23:30)

Forum Chondro Junkie

Has anyone ever considered the ratio of established babies based on Maternal incubation versus Artificial? Its something that has been disucussed on another forum recently....

-Killer Morelia Keeper-

BuddyBuscemi

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Posts: 385

(07/16/08 02:55:38)

MVFonator

Jurgen

I feel your pain!!!!
2006 clutch 20 out of 25 survived. Artificially incubated
2007 clutch 19 out of 20 survived. Artificially incubated
2008 clutch 6 out of 17 survived. Artificially incubated. This clutch was the most difficult python neo's that I have ever worked with ( a clutch of a. childreni previously held that distinction ). I tried every trick and technique, but to no avail. They wouldn't even swallow a pink head that was pushed past the jaw. Once they started to go I lost about 2-3 a day until I ended up with 6.

Good Luck and Keep us posted

Buddy B

Kim Burge

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Posts: 284

(07/16/08 04:03:14)

MVFonator

I don't think my experience with neonate deaths has been loss from lack of food. Here are my results:

2005 clutch - My first and I didn't really know what I was doing either. 20 babies hatched and I had lots of difficult feeders due to my own lack of experience. Two died around week 10 and while they were difficult feeders I think they were from non-food related problems. A couple people commented at the time that heart defects were a possibility and if babies make it past week 10 they'll probably survive.
2006 clutch - 20 babies hatched with two dying within the first 24hrs after hatching. The rest survived.
2008 clutch - 12 babies hatched and so far no deaths.

I don't feed until after their first shed. I feed every 5-7 days for babies taking whole pinkies. Non-feeders get assist fed a pinky head by week two past their first shed and I attempt to feed them every 3-4 days, assist feeding a head if they don't take it on their own. I use the handle end of my small sexing probe to push the head far enough down their throats so that they can't throw the heads out of their mouths.

Kim Burge
Southern Chondros
kimberly@southernchondros.com

aaron florian

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Posts: 2773

(07/16/08 07:28:50)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

Most of the babies that I've lost were due to non-feeding (ie; breeder isn't diligent enough with forcing) or lack of water (breeder isn't diligent enough with misting).

I've had only a few deaths in neos that were really "unexplained".. like, everything is going fine, and shazam. Dead on floor.

Jurgen, I would take Kims advice to heart -- at 5 weeks, I will typically start forcing, whether they like it or not. If I keep up with it, they are usually fine. I don't screw around anymore, they get their time, and if they don't eat, they eat by the hand of me. My patience and time are getting lower with them, and I actually think that's to their benefit.... that way they get fed, no questions asked.

http://www.iherp.com/aaron

Marcial

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Posts: 1664

(07/16/08 08:45:02)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

I agree with Aaron.... sooner is better. I only wait 3-4 weeks to begin heads. Also, if they don't feed on the first attempt, I begin the "tricks" (chick down, etc) on the second attempt... I would rather have them feeding and wean them off the scent at a later time than let them get weak before trying the scents.

Alot of it also depends on how many babies I have in a given year... if it is only a few, I am much more likely to spend the time assist feeding... if it is 50-60 like I've had some years in the past, it tends to be more survival of the fittest.... eat on your own or die.

Marcial Mendez
marcialmendez@hotmail.com
www.chondrolicious.com
www.chondrocoalition.com
http://www.iherp.com/marcialmendez

Jurgen van Spengen

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Posts: 1613

(07/17/08 13:18:29)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

thanks for all the feed back guys,
currently I'm really puzzled in the size difference between the non feeders, some are the same size as the ones that eat and others aren't even half that size .... kinda interesting and worrying at the same time

Jurgen.

"know how to make a small fortune by breeding chondro's?
start with a large fortune. -Danny Brotto"

Mike C.chondroforum

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Posts: 80

(07/17/08 13:55:11)

My experience was 16 babies this year, and after just a few days one mysteriously died, no real reason.

After that, I could only get a few to eat on their own, but the others would not eat for anything, until Aaron helped me with some "magic" chick down. With that gold stuff, all of them became established rather quickly, and I had every "non feeder" eating within 24 hours. Now they are ALL eating F/T non scented without ANY problems.

I recently took in 6 fresh neonate Sorongs that had not even shed yet. I immediately tried the "magic" gold down, and all have now eaten and are doing really well. It's the magic trick in my book now.

____________________________________________________________
/
Mike C /
mclark202@insightbb.com /
/
_______________________________________________________/

Jurgen van Spengen

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Posts: 1641

(08/04/08 10:53:18)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

as an update I'm down to 8 animals out of a clutch of 15,
the last two that died (yesterday and just now) were actually feeding, that is the depressing part as well as they all died in the past two weeks
out of the remaining 8 there's just 1 non feeder, crossing my fingers

I'm going to check my entire set-up since the feeding ones are dying now as well, I figured the others died from not feeding.

hope my future clutches have better survival rates,

Jurgen.

"know how to make a small fortune by breeding chondro's?
start with a large fortune. -Danny Brotto"

Amy Shoemaker

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Posts: 189

(08/04/08 11:09:37)

Forum Chondro Junkie

I think I'm one of the only ones that doesn't wait for the first shed. If they come out swingin, then I try feeding. In my experience, they tend to calm down after the first shed. It's probably of no significance, but I feed my honduran milks the day they come out of the egg. The sooner you get them striking the better.

Brandon

RCulver

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Posts: 1430

(08/04/08 11:13:47)

Forum super Ultra Chondro!

Jurge--
Here's some "food for thought": I feed my neonates 'the smallest' pinks I can find. And I continue feeding them the smallest pinks until they have had at least 15 or so meals.

Richy

jscrick

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Posts: 7

(08/04/08 18:40:27)

2 questions on this:
1) is the yolk ever an issue. In other words, is there the situation that they should NOT be fed as there is unabsorbed yolk in their belly and force feeding will do damage?
2) Is spinal kinking ever an issue from the rough nature of force feeding? Seem like just pulling them from their perch can damage their spine.
Thanks, jsc

Only Chondro

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Posts: 644

(08/04/08 19:13:44)

MVFonator

In nature neonates never find mammals in their aprox first two years.
They only feed on lizards and (mainly) gecko,s.
i think their system is not ready for that kind of food as a babie.
OC

GTPfan

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Posts: 476

(08/04/08 20:09:12)

MVF Post Breeder

Jurgen, here are my rookie stats.

2007 - 11 of 13 survivors, artificial incubation, 5 needed pink heads, the two that died were non-feeders, but neither death seemed related to non-feeding
2008 - 7 of 7 survivors, artificial again, all have had about 12 meals now, and none needed heads or assisting

I know this doesn't seem to contribute much, but I did have 5 non/slow feeders in 2007. The two that died seemed to have physiological issues that non-feeding may have been a by-product of. I used pink heads on all 5, and had to assist feed one of them. The assist feeder took nearly 2 months before assisting was no longer necessary. I never used an instrument to push the head down, but I would hold the head in their mouths and be very still until he just started working his jaws to take it down. I don't think I would have had the time to work with him if I had lots of babies.

Ben Evans
www.iherp.com/benevans

jscrick

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Posts: 9

(08/05/08 16:32:26)

Is there any correlation between the condition known as "skinfold" and the practice of force feeding neo's?
Is "skinfold" obvious/apparent in/on neonates?
jsc

greg stephens2

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Posts: 1144

(08/05/08 17:19:26)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

2 questions on this:
1) is the yolk ever an issue. In other words, is there the situation that they should NOT be fed as there is unabsorbed yolk in their belly and force feeding will do damage?
2) Is spinal kinking ever an issue from the rough nature of force feeding? Seem like just pulling them from their perch can damage their spine.

>>>>1<<<<Most of us wait until after the 1st shed for this very reason as well as you lose ground with babies with every failed attempt,
so rushing into feeding them could in it's self cause loses.

>>>>2<<<<Kinking can defiantly be caused by force feeding.
I personally only assist feed non strikers and will only go as far as quickly restraining them and putting the pink heads in their mouths and getting them to bite down.
If the pink head gets lodged in the teeth they will have no choice but to swallow it.
I think just the act of swallowing the pink head trains them to eat pinks to some degree.
I have also worked out a functional method of feeding runners that strike which involves very little restraint and a smooth flat surface.
Several of the forum users got to see me use this method at the BBQ.
I am not a fan of pushing pink heads or pinks behind the jaw and into the throat, but that is me.

I owe a local baby feeding master/SK8'er/teacher for this next one.

But if babies refuse pinks, and scented pinks and will strike when pestered I just let them strike and stick pink heads.
I also try this with the runners and non strikers every attempt prior to taking the next step and restraining them.

Like MM said moving on to scenting even the 1st night works well and weaning them of scent can be a pain on the more asshat type babies but I have found that
most scent feeders and be switched to mouse hair as a scent, from there it is all down hill.

Is there any correlation between the condition known as "skinfold" and the practice of force feeding neo's?
Is "skinfold" obvious/apparent in/on neonates?
jsc

I think that skin folds are caused by a glitch in development during incubation, it could be temperature or genetic in nature.

Quick stats

2004 8 hatched 8 survived << tuff clutch >>

2005 18 hatched 17 survived, the one baby died due to umbilical trauma brought on by a zip tie just hours after it hatched

2006 20 hatched 19 survived <<easy clutch>> the one I lost was a runner

2007 6 hatched 3 survived <<two separate clutches 1st one produced 3 babies all where asshats and rolled>>

2008 34 hatched so far 28 out of the 1st 2 clutches feeding one runner from those two rolled, 5 just hatched 8/4/08

Greg Stephens
gstephens_1@clearviewcatv.net

I lost JB's watch!!!!!

I have big steel pole envy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was told ,"By the way.........plastic is plastic - I've been in the cancer field for 20+ years now and I've never had a patient get cancer from burning plastic!" I had to ask my self what was this guy thinking!!

Last Edited By: greg stephens2 08/05/08 17:21:50. Edited 1 times.

Kim Burge

[-]

Posts: 297

(08/06/08 07:18:15)

MVFonator

Greg, can you explain the flat surface feeding technique?

I'm not sure how feeding prior to their first shed would cause a problem because of undigested yolk in their stomach. I just choose not to do it as I want them hungry for their first meals. As Greg mentioned, I'm more worried about a failed attempt due to lack of interest in food.

Brandon, have you see an increase in good feeders since switching to feeding pre-shed?

In three clutches I've only had one snake end up with a skin fold and it was never assist fed so no, (based on my one time experience) I don't think it is related to assist feeding at all.

I've been assist feeding since my first clutch and I've never had a spinal kink in any of my babies. I certainly do think this could be a problem during assist feeding but it just hasn't been a problem for me. Where's some wood to knock on?!

Kim Burge
Southern Chondros
kimberly@southernchondros.com

greg stephens2

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Posts: 1145

(08/06/08 13:51:28)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

Kim it is easier to explain over the phone!
You have a PM.

Greg Stephens
gstephens_1@clearviewcatv.net

I lost JB's watch!!!!!

I have big steel pole envy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was told ,"By the way.........plastic is plastic - I've been in the cancer field for 20+ years now and I've never had a patient get cancer from burning plastic!" I had to ask my self what was this guy thinking!!

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