I just caught sight of this Fish and Wildlife
proposal to list pythons and boas as injurious to our environment.. The fed is accepting comment until April, on this proposal that would ban pythons and boas.
                        
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0 Kudo
Protect your hobby
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 tupperwarezoo |
Protect your hobby |
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Posts: 49 (02/02/08 05:42:42)
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Last Edited By: tupperwarezoo 02/02/08 05:49:03.
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Christopher Feenan |
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Posts: 374 (02/02/08 06:40:39)
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Burms in Fla. are the catalyst for this legislation.
Unfortunately, we can't count on big gov't to deal with a real problem effectively. If they are succesful in banning all boas and pythons, then they would be unable to enforce the ban. Their solution would then be to hire more people to enforce the ban, which makes them bigger, and that is their only goal. Bright people in gov't (an oxymoron) know that the Burms are established in the Everglades, and cannot be eradicated at this point. But again, unenforceable legislation is the real goal here. Forward thinking reptile breeders predicted this problem when they watched the families take home their cute Burms in deli cups ten years ago. If we were more organized then, we could have had an adoption/euthanization program to prevent the release into the wild of these monsters. Burm breeder/sellers would have had to pay a surcharge to fund the program. If we were more organized now, what could we do ? Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber - Plato Suppose your were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. - Mark Twain
Last Edited By: Christopher Feenan
02/02/08 07:55:25.
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billzuk1 |
Feds Banning Idea | |||
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Posts: 260 (02/02/08 07:51:44)
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I think this is rediculous.Instead of going at those responsible they attack everyone.The great KGB or I mean the US government at work.They won't stop
until they get there way.
All they have to do is to regulate more.Like not allowing any sales to minors or to those not educated or have the right type of means to keep these animals safely THROUGHTOUT ther life span.There should be documentation of whom and where these animals are sold to. There are too many unresponsible and uneducated people out there that are obtaining and selling these type of snakes and screwing the rest of us.Check out You Tube under feeding big snakes and you see what I mean.I go to a local reptile swap out here.You would be amazed to see how many kids are able to buy burms, retics and anacondas freely.Is that same kid going to be able to house that burm in a few years when it gets three times it size?What will he or she do with it when it gets that big and they are unable to keep it in that 20 gallon with a screen lid on it?I think the dealers that are trying to make a fast buck and don't really care about the snake or what happens later should be fined or banned from selling animals like this if they are caught or don't follow the rules.This is the biggest cause of these types odf snakes getting in the wrong hands.If you literally see and sell a big constrictor that could be dangerous if not kept properly to a minor.You should be immediately banned from selling reptiles alltogether.Common sense is the key.I know this may sound like a pain in the butt.But,maybe they should make it so that you need to get a permit to posess snakes of these types.The permit would be a legal documentation of your age,your ablity to keep these animals,and your approved facilty you will be keeping them.Kinda like Fed Ex does to make you a certified shipper to ship reptiles.At least that way the right people are safe and it would keep snakes of this nature out of the wrong hands and out of the news.This way you cant' buy or sell snakes if you don't have one and would prevent pople on line selling to anyone.And avoid that question of how do you know who you are selling too.With a permit,you will know then.I know this will delay sales and take a little effort,but so be it if it will allow us to keep these animals. I was reading that the main focus was burms in the Everglades.This again comes from careless people who don't know what there getting into with an impulse buy.I also heard horror stories that wholesalers or dealers down in Florida are dumping there unwanted shipments in the wild.If this is true t,then they should be fined heavily and lose ther license to sell and import reptiles if they are caught.I think that is really wrong and irresponsible to dump your unwanteds and forget like nothing happened.I heard of people finding cobras and other venomous reptiles not native to Florida.And lets not forget about the Caiman issue either.That is why they have to make it so that every animal they get is documented and held accountable before they receive there shipments.Any bad shipments or unwanted animals should be put down or sent back and then the proper channels should be made aware to the status of the shipment.That way there will proof to where all these animals are. I can see where the Feds are coming from but, they are going about all the wrong way by attacking everyone.They have to be alot more lienient on the types of boas and pythons.I can see some of the big animals being a threat,but what is GTP or a Amazon tree Boa going to do.That to me is very stupid.Those who own these types should not have to worry about doing nothing.Only the potentially dangerous snakes.They just see it one way.There way.
Last Edited By: billzuk1
02/02/08 07:56:23.
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Colorado Riverboy |
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Posts: 433 (02/02/08 09:18:38)
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It's time for even-keeled, thoughtful, educated, and respected members of the herp community to start writting letters.
People frequently suggest more regulation of large constrictor sales, which btw I support to protect the hobby as a whole, but this is also just more "big government" regulation. Unfortunately our population's average IQ isn't up to the level where individual autonomy and absolute self-governed freedom is a viable option. At least they didn't mention Morelia spp., only the genera of Python, Eunectes, and Boa are listed. So seemingly, GTPs, ETB, and ATBs wouldn't be targeted, for now.
Jason Stevens
www.coloradochondros.com |
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chondroland |
Government Interference... | |||
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Posts: 507 (02/02/08 09:41:19)
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Hi:
Sounds like another example of the Government making the innocent folks among us (me, for example) pay for all the stupid stuff that a minority of society inflict on the rest of us (I would find the Darwin Awards much funnier than they are currently if I wasn't constantly reminded that it is folks like the Darwin Award recipients who have been instrumental in the creation of many of the stupid laws we now have imposed on us). I became convinced, when I lived in Boston, that our government is out to micro manage us - in every way it can. I remain convinced that I'm right about that. "At least they didn't mention Morelia spp., only the genera of Python, Eunectes, and Boa are listed. So seemingly, GTPs, ETB, and ATBs wouldn't be targeted, for now." They have to start somewhere. Give them time... Stu |
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 Mike Rico |
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Posts: 917 (02/02/08 09:59:08)
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i totally agree Stu.....if the founding fathers were to see what goverment has become they'd be rolling over in their graves.
I'm not sure how to handle something like this but if you just make the people with big boids pay permits thats just another way of big goverment overstepping its boundries. And eventually they will moe onto other repltiles.
Mike Rico
"Rico's Reptiles" |
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Only Chondro |
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Posts: 504 (02/02/08 11:26:13)
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Thing is they dont want it. Same here in Europe,rumours goes here with in five years ,all import will be closed. Further i like to say that in hot areas in the
US,,animals can easily survive there. That is a major problems for animals origin living there. I bet that there are escaped animals crawling around from
serious breeders too. Accidents happen OC
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calking1 |
Florida Reptiles of Concern | |||
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Posts: 328 (02/02/08 14:46:17)
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As of Jan 1 2008, The following animals have been designated reptiles of concern here in Florida.
1.Berms 2.Green Anacondas 3.Retics 4.Scrubs 5.African Rock Pythons 6.Nile Monitors These animals also require an additional $100.00 fee, plus they must be micro-chipped and registered. Howie |
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Christopher Feenan |
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Posts: 375 (02/02/08 15:40:35)
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Howie -
How do they enforce the microchip requirement ? If a breeder doesn't know about the requirement, can't he send any of those species to Fla. without consequence ? Also, who collects the $100, and what do they claim to be doing with it ? Just wondering how these policies are made enforceable. We can't have hots in NY, but I know of several guys that keep them. The only way that they will be fined is if someone gets bit and the police intervene. It seems like effective policy would have to start with breeders, and we would have to police our own. I think the root cause of the problem is people intentionally releasing large snakes because it is viewed as a humane solution to their problem (snakes too large for them ). If large snake sellers could offer a different solution, they might be able to keep breeding and selling them. |
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Florida 87 |
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Posts: 11 (02/02/08 17:25:35) |
Christopher Feenan wrote: Chris- I work at a store in florida, and our response to the bans on those animals? Our owner just doesn't sell them anymore. And breeders out of state wont
send hots or crocs (for example) across states lines unless you provide proof of your venemous license and/or class 2 or 3 license. Well...only reputable
breeders do. In the case of pet shops, theoretically a person is supposed to buy their class 1 pet license before they purchase the snake (which requires
passing a test on basic knowledge of the species and caring for it) and we have to see the license before we sell the animal. If you have a license, i think
you get inspected (i know thats what happens with my bosses hots and crocs) which means you have to get the microchip since you're going to have a fish and
game officer in your house randomly during the year. Fish and game collect the fee to own the animal (which is $50 or $100, I'm not sure). And as for
enforcing it? Yea, they suck at that. Police raiding your house or someone tattling on you is pretty much the only way an individual would get caught.
This has been a hot topic at the store for a while, but I hadn't hear anything about possibly banning/restricting pythons and boas. Hope that doesn't pass... Aly www.myspace.com/four_wheeled_love |
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calking1 |
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Posts: 329 (02/02/08 17:55:00)
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Chris, Theoretically an out of state breeder could ship one of these animals in without FWC knowing about it, but it is aimed at local breeders,pet shops,and
current owners. I feel that this type of information goes thru the reptile community rather quickly so I don't see outside shipping being a big factor. Aly
is right any one who has a class 3 license
(sell and exhibit) is subject to an inspection at any time, I have been inspected once in the last 8 years and this was because of a very envious competitor. These inspections have been around forever but were very loosely enforced. I expect FWC to be more proactive in this area now. This also means that anyone who sells at Daytona or any Fl. show would fall into this category as they are required to posses a valid Fl. license. Howie
Last Edited By: calking1
02/02/08 17:57:04.
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Bryan Suson |
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Posts: 176 (02/02/08 21:32:43)
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Yes, this is some serious business here. If this is passed, it WILL affect everyone here. I hope that nobody in this forum takes this lightly and EVERYONE
acts on this by responding to this rediculous proposal. This is just downright scary.
-Bryan |
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Anbergator |
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Posts: 8 (02/03/08 07:13:26) |
These new regulations have all but already passed as far as the Fish & wildlife commision is concerned.They're not asking you how you feel about this
matter ,they're looking for additional information.These new regulation have been formated years in advance of this.Just take a look at Daytona's
Breeder Expo rules implimented last year.I'm in no way happy to have the govt. stick it's nose in to my bussiness but something has to be done about
the irresponsable eggheads who buy a big snake to compensate for other shortcomings and find out a month later they're scared to death of it.It's been
proven that we can't regulate ourselfs, just no reasonable way to do that.Sad to say it was only a matter of time before the Govt. stepped in and make life
suck.Passing this regulation will not save the dead eco-system called the Everglades,only make those who are blindly lead feel better.It was their infinite
wisdom that came up with the plan to drain south Florida to make a better place to live(how'd that work-out for you).All but killing the Everglades and now
they are concerned.Personally I'd like to tell them to kiss my .......but at this time it wouldn't make a difference on this matter.We need to look
ahead for the next issue coming what ever that might be and devise our deffense.Do I think there should be some regulation on the big snakes,yeah,something
like there is for crocks and hot stuff.If your qualified prove it and nobody going to stand in your way.
Andy
Last Edited By: Anbergator
02/03/08 17:37:52.
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Bryan Suson |
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Posts: 177 (02/03/08 20:38:01)
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Ummm, little shocked on the lack of response here. I am surprised that there are not more people chiming in on this and expressing their thoughts. Yes, the
problem in the Everglades with large constrictors is the major root in this ridiculous solution, but we are talking about everyone in the herp world that will
be touched by this. Forget about current regs and bans on certain species at a state level, we are talking Federal. From the looks of the following document,
they are proposing a ban on the snakes within the python, boa, and eunectes genera. If they are only looking at a genera level ban, then this will exclude
morelia genera keepers. However, if they have their wording wrong here and are implying a family-level ban, then this means us! No more chondros! How many of
you keep ball pythons here? Because you will legally not be able keep them if this new federal law is passed. I strongly encourage everyone here to read this
proposal and voice your concerns in an educated and responsible manner to the USFWS.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20081800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-1770.pdf Keepers can only get a permit if it lies under the following (from actual proposal) "Permits may be issued for scientific, medical, educational, or zoological purposes." Here is another bell ringer for you: "This document seeks comments from the public to aid in determining if a proposed rule is warranted" Keep in mind I do not keep any large constrictors nor would I ever want to. Hope all minds come in together from this forum on this. -Bryan P.S. Forum Moderators- Any way to sticky tack this topic or a general message about this on the main forum board?
Last Edited By: Bryan Suson
02/03/08 20:45:48.
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Ben Team |
my letter | |||
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Posts: 922 (02/04/08 12:34:43)
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Here is a rough draft of the letter I plan on sending if anyone would like to offer constructive criticizm or cut and paste to use as your own...etc...
February 4, 2008
To Whom It May Concern:
It has recently come to my attention that the USFW is considering adding snakes of the genera Python, Eunectes, and Boa to the list of injurious species and as such prohibiting their importation and inter-state commerce under the Lacey Act. This will affect the interstate commerce of between 20-25 species (depending on the taxonomic authority) of reptile that are commonly propagated in the United States for the pet trade. The addition of these species to the injurious species list is not warranted, and to do so would be a mistake both politically and economically.
The goal to protect our natural ecosystems and the wildlife therein is certainly one of the greatest responsibilities we have as citizens, elected officials, and wildlife officers. As an environmental educator and the Director of a non-profit nature center, my desire to protect the natural environment is well documented. However, the proposed actions will do little to help this goal, and in actuality may do significant damage to some of the ecosystems of concern.
I am sure your time is very valuable, and so I will list the reasons this is proposal is inappropriate below and try to be as brief as possible:
q The species targeted in this proposal are all of tropical or subtropical distribution. They do not possess adaptive capacity to survive freezing winter temperatures. They do not possess hibernating behaviors or physiology, and as such will perish upon exposure to freezing or near freezing temperatures. In the contiguous United States, only the southern most portion of Florida could realistically provide a suitable habitat for these species. q All states already have legislation prohibiting the release of non-native species. This proposal would be redundant and over reaching. Proper enforcement of the current legislation would however, benefit all parties. q The domestic captive propagation and interstate commerce of these species (and the equipment and food to maintain these and similar animals) is a multimillion-dollar industry. The keeping of snakes and other reptiles as pets is a positive, constructive hobby engaged in by millions of Americans, particularly young people. It fosters an appreciation for the natural world, and often accelerates an interest in Science and Mathematics. q Were this proposal to be enacted, tens of thousands of animals would become worthless commodities to professional breeders. They would be unable to sell many of them if they were prohibited from engaging in interstate commerce. No doubt, thousands would make their way into our natural habitats. Now as stated above, those habitats with freezing winter temperatures would not be affected over the long term. However, the south Florida habitats would see thousands of discarded snakes added to the ecosystems. Ironically, this is the very problem that the proposal seeks to prevent. q The proposal is seemingly arbitrary. The species included represent a broad variety of animals and life histories. Only a small handful of which grow to large sizes. Most of the species included in these genera do not exceed two meters in length and are incapable of causing serious harm to humans. q This issue is local in nature, i.e. as Florida is the only state in the contiguous United States that could conceivably face challenges related to the release of these animals, it is an issue best handled by the States and not the Federal Government. Mandatory microchip implants (such as are used with Dogs and Cats) are one possible tool that the States could use to protect their interests. This would give the presiding authority a direct link to the party responsible for releasing the animal, with heavy fines charged to guilty parties. These monies could be used to help fund protection of these habitats through eradication efforts. q This proposal is inherently un-enforceable. Many people will continue to maintain collections of these animals, and as the industry ventures underground, no enforceable measures will be available to address these valid concerns.
I appreciate the USFW service's attempts at protecting our natural environments. This proposal however, is poorly conceived. |
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Rico Walder |
Nice, but | |||
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Posts: 478 (02/04/08 16:39:13)
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you didn't provide any of the information they are looking to assemble. They are looking for data, hard numbers! Broad statements like "a
multimillion-dollar industry" won't mean a thing to them. Address the questions they have directly and you will have a much more relavant document.
They are looking for infomation on,
1. Your state regulations on the proposed species. If there are none, say so. 2. How many species are currently in production. List all species you posess & produce as this will give them the information they currently seek and provide a figure they can compare to in the future. 3. How many businesses sell the proposed species. If you do say so. 4. How many species breed the proposed species. If you do say so. 5. What are the annual sales of the proposed species. If you sell them provide your data. 6. Provide the number of proposed species permitted within your state. If they are all permitted then say so. 7. Cost of eradication of proposed speciies. This would be nearly impossible for any of us to quantify but if you are in a state that could not support an introduced reproducing population due to environmental factors then say so. 8. Costs of propagation, recovery, and restoration programs for native species affected by proposed species. Again, this is nearly impossible for us to quantify but no doubt So. Fla is an ecological disaster and would cost billions to return to a completely natual state devoid of all introduced exotics. If you have no defensable data to submit then say so. 9. What State-listed (i.e. Endangered, Threatened, Vulnerable, Special Concern, In Need of Management, etc.) would be impacted by introductions of the proposed species. Find out what's listed in your state and include it if you think it is necessary. Again, this is climate dependant and if that's the case small numbers of introduced specimens would have only a short term impact. If that's the case state it. 10. What species have been impacted by the proposed species. Currently it would be just those found in So. Fla. Both native and introduced exotics. I'm sure they already have numbers on this. Just my $.02. |
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Ben Team |
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Posts: 923 (02/05/08 07:21:07)
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Thanks for the feedback Rico. Perhaps I was unclear about my intentions. I fully intend on sending whatever data I can regarding their survey. This was in
addition to that.
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ScubaTim |
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Posts: 94 (02/05/08 08:13:06)
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I know this sounds a little cliche but what the hell is this country coming to? How may more regulations and freedom shackles do we need? This makes me sick!
Now that i got that off my chest, I would just like to say that I understand the intention of the proposal. But i also think that this would do nothing but keep respectful/responsible keepers down. The problem in Florida exists because of few disrespectful A-holes that have no regard for laws along with no ethics. Do you really think its going to matter to these type of people if the animal they just purchased was "legal" or not? I"M MOVING TO AFRICA |
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Ben Team |
Re-re-visited | |||
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Posts: 928 (03/29/08 11:30:31)
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So since we have had a few weeks to stew on this....what are everyones' thoughts?
Does this scare you all like it does me? Do you think cooler heads will prevail? Are most of us Morelia-ophiles just grateful that our critters aren't included? Is it naive to think that Morelia's won't be added? I just went over to K-snake, and everytime I do I get really REALLY scared about all of this... |
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IRONHEAD272 |
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Posts: 968 (03/29/08 12:40:05)
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Well, I live in South Florida near Howie, so I am right in the hot topic area. I have no problem with them regulating the "large" constrictors. Of
course, I do have a problem that they pick out these species and do not address many others. IMO the world is much smaller than it used to be, and I don't
think we will be able to keep animals restricted to their original environments much longer anyway. If an animal will thrive in a similiar environment, then
it will establish itself. Ecosystems all over the world will be changing and I doubt any law will stop it.
The Florida Wildlife Commision itself, has introduced many invasive animals to combat other. For instance, the Peacock Bass was brought here to combat the Oscar population. Oscars are a dominating fish that has seriously diminished the Largemouth Bass population down here. Oscars were very popular in aquariums, until they started to eat all of your other fish. Same scenario. People didn't want to kill their fish, so they turned them loose in the canals. They thrive here. So, in response, the FWC introduced the Peacocks to combat the Oscars. They didn't ban the selling of Oscars. Now we have a huge population of Peacocks and Oscars. Well the Peacocks are not native to here, but they are an awesome gamefish, so they are OK to stay here. Iguanas have completely taken over South Fla. They are everywhere in huge numbers. I can go to a place in downtown Ft Lauderdale where I can pull out a head of lettuce and have no less than a hundred Iguanas come eat right out of my hand. However, most people love them and do not consider them a problem. Of course, people are not afraid of them. It is quite obvious to most of us, that these animals will not be able to survive in most of the areas of the country because of the climate. Heck, we got down to freezing one night this year, (which is a very unusual event) and all of a sudden there were dead Iguanas everywhere. The scary thing about what the wildlife commision is proposing is that they are assuming that global warming will change the climate so much in the United States enough in the next 100 years that these snakes will be able to survive from Florida to California. So while we can provide info, they don't necessarily have to accept it, because they are changing the climates and making our info obsolete. I think Trooper was the one who responded in the forum and said, "If global warming changes our climate that much, we will have much larger problems to worry about then a few snakes surviving in the wild." I thought that was great. My point is that the powers that be are using the general public's inherent fear of snakes to advance themselves politically. They talk about the invasion of the large constrictors and tell everyone that their kids are indanger, but I will do something to help. Let's pass this law requiring chips. It is a complete joke. If they wanted to REALLY address the situation, the could require class about the large animals that they are buying. Maybe even show them what one of these things will look like in three or four years. That would accomplish two things. It would eliminate the impulse buyer. The kid that walks in with a hundred dollars in his pocket and says, "Wow, that little critter looks pretty cool. I want one." Now he would have to register and maybe pay for a class, plus take the time to go take it. Then get the animal, or choose not to. Also, it would educate the person on how to take care of the animal and exactly what they are getting into. Unfortunately, they are not concerned with real regulation, they only want perceived regulation. I'm sure that the added revenue doesn't hurt either. We definitely need to make our opinions heard. I'm not sure how much it will help, but ignoring it would be devastating. Most people I know, think that I am crazy to have all the snakes, and that is how the general public feels about us. So don't expect them to listen to what you have to say. Still, we need to stay updated and respond to their questions. Rico's list of questions is very important. We need everyone to respond intelligiently to the exact info that they need. That is our only line of defense. Don't let your letter get thrown out because you let your heart get in it. You need unpredjudiced facts to support our ideas. Anyway, I have rambled long enough. Just MY .02 Bob |
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