That NOVA program is a must see.
                        
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How would you improve “Captive Fitness” for Green Tree Pythons?
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 bigsnakes |
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Posts: 1344 (11/03/09 16:49:34)
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KidChondro |
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Posts: 219 (11/04/09 05:30:29) |
BuddyBuscemi wrote: Buddy B, Did you read that post about the snake making bubbles in the water?
-JG
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John Romano |
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Posts: 3644 (11/04/09 06:35:52)
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I would be real hesitant to say a snake would try to heal itself.
But as far as selectively breeding for fitness, it is simple, just take the two healthiest snakes you have and breed them. It is never 100% and all your doing is increasing probabilities of more fit snakes. Same thing as breeding thoroughbred horses. Just because the two fastest horses are bred together doesn't mean all the horses will be fast, but the odds are far greater. j |
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KidChondro |
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Posts: 221 (11/04/09 09:36:28) |
Yeah I understand that. Just like breeding an albino to another albino, you're not gonna get all albinos. You might not even get one. I was just saying,
evolution has to start somewhere. You never know what animals are up to.. I believe that a snake can try to rid an illness.. Especially after seeing videos of
masturbating dogs on youtube. Sure it could be coincidence, but you never know. Quantum physics' expirements of "entanglement". Sure it could be
a coincidence, but who's to say it isn't? Its relatively hard to prove or disprove.
Anyways, selective breeding should come before other types of breedings.. You don't want weak animals bearing more weak animals. My statement is probably a bit elusive.. So be it. I also agree with the feeding issue. It works out well for us, but wild snakes have no schedule for anything. But then again, these aren't wild. We are breeding captives which will eventually start the role of evolution on these creatures for them to, hopefully, become even stronger and not obese chondros. Man, I'm probably gonna regret this post. Just my two cents.. Plus some bs. -JG |
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Solenoglyph |
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Posts: 52 (11/04/09 09:54:22) |
KidChondro wrote:Albino X albino = 100% albinos in my experience, as long as they are the same "type" of albino. And what does this have to do with masturbating dogs? |
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KidChondro |
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Posts: 223 (11/04/09 11:44:11) |
Dogs learned how to pleasure themselves, why can't a snake learn how to help get rid of a cold?
I don't know. I'm very tired and just throwing random @%%! out there. -JG |
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JordanGentry |
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Posts: 248 (11/04/09 12:27:49)
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John Romano wrote:The capacity of reptiles to regulate their body temperature through behavioral means has been known since the beginning of this century. A logical extension of that knowledge is the recognition that reptiles can have fever: the upper resetting of the body thermostat in response to bacterial or viral infection. Fever is distinguishable from hyperthermia in that the thermoregulatory responses promote rising body temperature in the former, and oppose it in the latter. Since they virtually possess no autonomic thermoregulatory responses, ectotherms, when feverish should produce and maintain their fever behaviorally. This has been demonstrated experimentally: the lizard Dipsosaurus dorsalis selected a warmer environment and thus raised its body temperature after being injected with pyretogens (LINK). Such a behavioral fever had survival value in that lizard ( LINK). Also, stress induced fever in turtles: (LINK). Maybe not in snakes: (LINK) Amazing to think that reptiles can create a behavior induced fever to help battle an infection, but it has been described. Jordan |
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John Romano |
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Posts: 3648 (11/04/09 15:26:40)
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Jordan,
That is some interesting information, and I agree when an animal is sick it is going to do what it can to to make itself better. I guess my issue was with the wording of "realizing" it is getting sick. I would view it more as "mucous in throat react by putting head up", metabolism is weak, increase body temp by moving to basking spot". |
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jamesopdahl.chondroforum |
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Posts: 94 (11/04/09 16:35:19) |
I dont know if I really agree with a blanket statement like More Food = Shorter Lifespan? I mean you could also say less food = death. I think with chonros and
any other living thing the trick is a happy balance. I dont recommend overfeeding but if you feed more often you need to make sure the animal is burning some
excess fats off. I believe that younger animals in general need more nutrients being taken in at a more regular rate than older ones and that feeding on a
bi-weekly basis is not harmful at all. Most of the food is burned off simply by being used for growing and building healthy bones and muscle. As the animal
grows and its metabolism slows decrease food intake accordingly. Observing the animals daily is also important. If the snake has fed a week ago and does
nothing but sit in one spot for the next week then let it go longer. If it has been active and passed a stool maybe its time to feed. I guess my main point is
that I do not think there is a formula and never will be. Each animal is unique and the best thing we can do is observe each one carefully. I note the behavior
of each of my animals every morning afternoon and night. Please dont think I am promoting overfeeding in any way. In my opinion a hungry snake is a healthy
snake but if it is hungry by all means feed it! Everything in life in moderation.
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jamesopdahl.chondroforum |
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Posts: 95 (11/04/09 16:59:17) |
Sorry Buddy! I just read to the third page to see what you were getting at. I do believe that animals have built in responses to heal themselves though they
may be primitive at best. If a dog is overheated do you not think it would jump in cold water if given the chance? Or if a dog has a cut on its foot what does
it do? Lick it! Sounds like self help to me! In some sense I do think that my snakes that blow bubbles are self helping to be healthy. It must feel good to
them at the very least otherwise they would not continue this behavior. And if it feels good to the animal then in some sense it is self help because pleasant
stimuli can do nothing but good mentally and physically. Is tail hanging not a form of self help? Or maybe it is just a way of saying please help me? Who knew?
Our animals have been speaking to us all along. HaHa!
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MegF42 |
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Posts: 2634 (11/04/09 20:16:59)
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I feed every 2-3 weeks for my animals. All are much more active than in the past when I fed weekly. I also have natural cages that are larger. Slowly I'm
changing all cages to bio Earth as well as having live plants, natural branches and moss. On any given night you can find all my animals out and crawling
around. The only exceptions are those that are in blue and ones that just fed. Even my cornsnakes are out and about most of the time. I'm currently
breeding Tempest who at 5 years old is around 700 grams and lean. I could get her to 800 grams....maybe...if I made her a fat pig. I had one prolapse with her
almost 3 years ago and I vowed never to feed weekly again. I've not had an issue with any of my snakes since then. There are a few species I do feed weekly
due to their metabolisms but there are a lot of snakes I look at in pictures that I think are morbidly obese and the owners are proudly announcing they are
1800-2000 grams. That's like saying you're proud to weigh 450 pounds and you're 5'2" tall! Fitness doesn't have to be about genetics.
People who are out of shape and overweight can exercise and become very fit. It's about moving and not eating too much. Everything I've read about
snakes points to a system that is designed to be empty for periods of time. In captivity I think we rarely allow our animals that chance to really clean their
systems out. Certainly feeding weekly doesn't do that. How do I know? Because if you've had an animal off food for several weeks and they are still
able to crap, there's something in their system to go to waste. My cornsnake males will crap after a month of being off food due to breeding
"lust". It's in there!
2.2~Cornsnakes
3.4.2~Green Tree Pythons 4.2.1~Amazon tree boas 1.0~California Kingsnake 1.2~Snail Eaters 1.0~Eyelash Viper 1.1~False Water Cobras Assorted: Horses, dogs, and cats www.Franclycac.com |
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KidChondro |
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Posts: 226 (11/04/09 20:36:06) |
this is good stuff. I find it VERY interesting how each animal has its own way of helping itself; whether it's natural instincts or just a rare habit that
just so happens to help. White rabbits in cold climates developed plack feet a noses to help stay warm.. I find that pretty cool. Nature and evolution is
amazing.
-JG |
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chondrohead44 |
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Posts: 321 (11/04/09 21:42:50) |
Meg,
Just curious, what type of corns do you have? Do they have a natural setup as well? Jacob 1.0 Pygar! |
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BuddyBuscemi |
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Posts: 755 (11/05/09 04:24:25)
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Great Replies everyone!!
I am more interested in your thoughts about internal fitness than external fitness ( you know...lean and mean). Carrie You are correct animals that could be breed for captive fitness in my collection, may not met the demands of captive fitness in your collection. But here is a thought...what if we as breeders were to remove chondros from the breeding pool that has had an RI, or prolapse, or skinfold, or given antibiotics?? Here is another thing that I have begun to do with my entire collection.....night drops. I never allowed chondros night drops unless they were being cycled for breeding, now everyone is getting a night drop...even neos. Right know it is 6-8 degrees, but I plan to eventually use little or no heat at after the lights are off. Thanks Buddy B |
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jamesopdahl.chondroforum |
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Posts: 96 (11/05/09 05:13:56) |
Hey Buddy! As far as night drops go I cool every animal I have the same regardless of breeding or not. Do you think healthy animals at a younger age being
cooled may help their systems adapt to cooling easier as adults? It just makes more sense to me instead of never cooling an animal throughout its first couple
of years only to shock it then throw in the stress of another animal being introduced. While cooling none of my juvies or 1 and 2 year olds have skipped a
meal. If anything they are more active. I have had the whole collection at lows of 68 degrees with not a sniffle. During the regular season I still have a
night drop of 5 to 8 degrees.
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KidChondro |
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Posts: 228 (11/05/09 05:42:59) |
Buddy B,
I posted some info about the physiology of pythons that I found on KS. I remember reading in there that If you had a problem with the snake within the passed two years, it can effect the clutch.. there really is abundant information in here that is quite useful. http://www.kingsnake.com/viridis/murdoch1.html -JG |
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BuddyBuscemi |
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Posts: 757 (11/05/09 13:14:48)
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jamesopdahl wrote: James
JG Yes.. good info, there is a good chance I attended that very lecture. My early python collection was heavily infused with Barker animals.
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bomb |
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Posts: 35 (11/05/09 14:43:52) |
I give my guys night drops and always have. I turn the heat sources off and have never had either exhibit any signs of ill health to this point and over here
the winter gets cold of a night time but they still are active and can be found cruising around an hour after the lights and heat sources go off.
This is a real interesting thread and one of the reasons why this forum is so good. |
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John Romano |
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Posts: 3664 (11/05/09 14:57:21)
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I night drop everyone as well. I am 99.99% sure I remember Greg Schroeder mentioning he does this years ago. That is when I first started doing it.
I am under the impression the night drops are fine as long as the animals can get into the 80'a and higher during the day to carry out routine metabolic functions, like immune system sustainability. j |
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Christopher Feenan |
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Posts: 701 (11/06/09 07:56:09)
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Yeah John, Greg not only uses night drops year round, he uses very little supplemental daytime heat. The Ariz climate is apparently almost perfect, he just
plays with moisture levels by monitoring dewpoint.
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