(under)grounded chondro

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Maelstrom

(under)grounded chondro

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Posts: 37

(04/02/08 16:37:54)

MVF Post Breeder

Hey guys,
I just got my first chondro( hes 6 months old) two weeks ago, and hes been laying on the ground recently. The first week I had him, no issues with laying on the ground, perched during the day, cage hunting at night. But for the past four days( he started a few days after his first feeding with me) hes been on the ground. He was usually coiled as if he was on a perch, butjust on the ground, and when I came home today, he was laying under the newspaper... I havent really changed anything, so I am not sure if anything may have triggered it. SHould I be worried? Anything I should look for? Should I go ahead and feed tomorrow as scheduled?
Thanks

Russ Stansfield

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Posts: 197

(04/02/08 16:41:17)

Forum Chondro Junkie

Hello,
What temps? Humidity? You say he, is it a he? Is is captive bred, captive born, imported farm hatched? What is the set up?
Russ

Maelstrom

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Posts: 38

(04/02/08 17:20:04)

MVF Post Breeder

HEres some pics of the cage( minus some of the tape i have on now)

Cage is 13 3/8 x 11 3/8 x 6 inches
Have herpstat running 85.5, and humidity Im not sure how to explain, but I spray every day around 4, humididty shoots up, gradually decreases until its just dry at around 3-4 the next day
Farm-bred, but was in care for a few months( 4or 5) before purchased it. It is not sexed, I just have a tendancy to say "him"

Mike C.chondroforum

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Posts: 35

(04/02/08 17:58:20)

I can't tell what the temps are, but it might be possible that he/she is too hot, and trying to escape that light. Might also be seeking humidity. If it's a neo, keep it well hydrated and humid. A dry baby can't deal with it as an adult can(learned that the hard way).

____________________________________________________________
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Mike C /
mclark202@insightbb.com /
/
_______________________________________________________/

Maelstrom

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Posts: 39

(04/02/08 18:05:17)

MVF Post Breeder

I dont believe he is too hot as he has been laying on the warm side of the cage, and I just temped him( infrared thermometer) and he was exactly 86 degrees. Measuring the cool side of the cage, it drops to 75 degrees.
IS the temperature the probe reads going to be the temperature he will feel if hes in that spot( you can see the probe in the second picture)? would being under the lamp accumulate more heat, where the probe only reads the ambient air temperature?

Maelstrom

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Posts: 40

(04/02/08 18:16:15)

MVF Post Breeder

Just found something that may be the cause... Under the heat lamp, the bamboo stick( his perch) is 105 degrees :/ The bamboo was originally hollow, but I stuck the long section of a plastic coat hanger in it and silicone around that to steady the coat hanger rod in it, allowing me pop it into the side of the cage( that may not make sense, but I think the fact its filled with stuff helps it keep heat).
Do you guys think this is what is causing his behavior? What could I substitute as a perch that will not accumulate heat?

NMCreptiles

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Posts: 25

(04/02/08 19:12:39)

From what you have described and from the picture it looks as if the lamp is to close. I myself use a very similar setup for mine except I suspended the light from the ceiling about 2 feet above the enclosure with a solid top to keep the humidity in. I also control my temps with a helix. This setup seems to work rather well until I can get some racks and PVC cages.

Russ Stansfield

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Posts: 200

(04/03/08 15:46:31)

Forum Chondro Junkie

With your set up, I would use flexwatt under the cage. Set the herpstat probe on the perch on the flexwatt side at 86-88 degrees allowing a cool end. The light is definitely too hot IMO. Also being farmed hatched, it is never a bad idea to have a fecal done. I had farmed hatched that did well for 1-2 years and then floor themselves only to die soon after. I'm not saying that is going to happen, but farm hatched are just not good choices for the first one. The price is why people buy them for their first ones. Too many problems can come with farmed haatched. The fact of the matter is, because its floored tells me something is going on. It is not uncommon for GTPs to floor themselves, but flooring and no activity tends to be a problem. I would change the way you're heating it and see what happens. My tubs have the under flexwatt on one side with a warm spot of 88 and a cool spot of 75. Also ad some more perches. One perch is not enough. Use some plastic hangers to give it a choice. Good luck and happy herping.

Russ

jamey36

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Posts: 41

(04/03/08 15:48:19)

MVF Post Breeder

The heat from a light such as this will increase a basking animals body temp to above your tstat setting the longer it basks.You would probably be better off with a taller tub.If the perch is getting to 105 it is probably too close to the basking lamp.A taller tub would allow you different perch heights so the chondro would have more options as to the amount of heat it wants while perched.
Jamey

Maelstrom

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Posts: 42

(04/03/08 16:35:44)

MVF Post Breeder

Hey Russ,
Flexwatt was my first choice in heating, but it just didnt work. Wouldnt get the tank nearly up to temp. I was running two one foot long sections of 3 inch flex watt in parrallel under the cage. Perhaps I could see your flexwatt setup?
Also, I lifted him out gently to see if I could see any problems on him( mucous, anthing else) and he looked fine, so I put him back and nows hes cruising the cage, very active, so hes not acting very sick( plus he just downed a pinkie a minute ago).... It seems to me that my setup is just wrong :/ Ive jsut dropped the stat down a little bit, hopefully make him more comfortable. What kind of dimensions would you recomend for a new setup? LIke 4 inches taller and maybe some in the lenth and width?
Thanks!

Last Edited By: Maelstrom 04/03/08 16:39:50. Edited 1 times.

Gary Schiavino

Temps

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Posts: 804

(04/03/08 18:01:43)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

Maelstrom,

No need to complicate this issue. Your animal is not sick, however your temps are too high.
The animal is stressed and it's trying desperately to escape the heat.

Lose the light, and quickly change to flex-watt heat tape. If you're unable to raise your temps enough with flexwatt, raise the room temp or
for a few bucks, purchase a rack system plus thermostat.

I know your intentions are good with that set-up, but small enclosures utilizing incandescent lighting for heat is a recipe for disaster.
Too difficult to regulate.

Sincerely,
Gary Schiavino

GTPfan

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Posts: 364

(04/03/08 23:38:01)

MVF Post Breeder

I know with single tub situations in an open room, flexwatt has a hard time keeping the temps up. However, it can be much easier regulated and has fewer dangers. I have been able to "insulate" free standing tubs like yours by taking an old bath towel, folding it in half and draping it over the tub. Usually covering the top and two sides will be enough to trap the heat in, but take care not to cover too many air holes. The reason tubs work so well in racks is because the rack provides this insulation. If this is still not working out, you could try switching to a ceramic heater in the lamp (look at NMCReptiles pic, right lamp) instead of an incandescent bulb. The ceramic heaters are more expensive, but seem to work well with thermostats. I think the lamps in that pic above are too far from the tub, but whatever it takes to keep the tub temps right, do it!

Ben Evans
www.iherp.com/benevans

Armed with a sharpie, adding black to my green snakes one scale at a time

Maelstrom

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Posts: 43

(04/04/08 11:45:34)

MVF Post Breeder

Would switching to a cermaic heater solve this problem, or atleast make him more comfortable in the meantime while I get him over to flexwatt? Would a zoomed 10 gallon UTH work( 6X8" 8 watt)?
THank you everyone for your input!

IRONHEAD272

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Posts: 969

(04/04/08 12:51:49)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

Maelstrom,
I agreee that the temps are too hot and that the bulb is too close. I think the easiest fix (if you can't get flexwatt to work), simply switch to a larger tub. I usually find to it not a problem when an animal goes under the substrate. I have had several do this. However, in this case, you are getting temps of 86 on the snake. That is too high. My animals shy away from temps that high, and your enclosure is too small for it to get away. Try a larger and especially deeper enclosure and maybe that would solve your problems.

Bob

BuddyBuscemi

My Opinion

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Posts: 363

(04/05/08 13:41:22)

MVFonator

Your herpstat probe is too far from the area you want to be the warmest.
You could 1) drop the temp setting on the probe ( I'd start at 80 degrees and work my way up or down until I have the hot spot correct.)
2) move the probe and securely attach it to the perch, My least favorite option because the snake will eventually lay on it and affect the temps
3) hang the probe from the lid and close to the perch and about perch level
4) change out your bulb for smaller on, i.e. 15 watts.
I use the same setup in different sizes for animals in quarantine, and as long as the temps are monitored with a reliable thermostat you should be golden.

Good Luck
Buddy B

Maelstrom

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Posts: 45

(04/05/08 15:26:41)

MVF Post Breeder

Well a little while ago I switched it back over to flexwatt( soldered together a 4 and 3 inch pieces in parallel) and have gotten the cage up to temp ( Thanks for bunch for the towel tip Ben!). I have the probe reading 85.6, is that a good hot spot? Buddy, since I have UTH now, do you think I would have to adjust my probes position still?
Should I be concerned about hit photo period now? THe towel kinda blocks out a good portion of available light... I have a window, and another snake tank with a flourescent light on about 6-7 feet away on a timer... Is the light cycle really all that important, al long as he can tell the difference between night and day?

Thank you everyone for your help!

Maelstrom

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Posts: 46

(04/05/08 15:34:56)

MVF Post Breeder

it seems like he is trying to get under the newspaper again. Its getting close to dawn, and his eyes were really dilated so maybe hes just in night mode... Do you think he just needs some time to realize that his perch isnt too hot?

EDIT: Ok guys hes doing great. Been perched all day, and was pretty active last night. The flexwatt has quite a tough time keeping up with temperature fluctuations, but its getting the job done.

Last Edited By: Maelstrom 04/06/08 16:03:43. Edited 1 times.

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