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Deposit Return Policy - Seeking honest opinions!

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VinnyButch

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Posts: 67

(03/02/08 15:04:05)

Forum Chondro Junkie

Everyone, not only in the herp business, but in any business, should realize that a deposit is required to hold merchandise because the seller is committing said merchandise to the prospective buyer. In the herp business, such a hold costs a seller time to care for the animal, money to feed and keep the animal warm, and the prospect of selling the animal to someone else who actually has the total purchase price available now. No one can reasonably think a deposit is refundable on demand.
I think the karma issue hasn't been correctly addressed here. The feeling I got from reading the original post was that the buyer was difficult (at best), abusive, threatening and accusatory. Aside from the fact that it's been generally agreed that 'technically' it's not necessary to refund the deposit, it doesn't sound as though the buyer is deserving of favorable, good karma-type treatment. Had Buyer X rationally explained that he was feeling funny about the whole transaction since the seller seemed to be in a hurry to receive the funds, but not in any hurry to ship the animal, I'm guessing this situation would never had made it onto the forum. Both buyer and seller would have had a mature discussion about it and things would have been resolved in that very phone call.
Karma begets karma in my opinion. I'm as easygoing as can be, but when someone pushes, I always push back. Usually harder.
I guess I'd give back the deposit just not to have to deal with the guy again, but I'd definitely make him sweat for a while. And I definitely wouldn't refer to him as Buyer X. We'd all like to know who to avoid.

Gee, with all these 0.02 you're getting, you'll have that deposit back in no time!!!

Good Luck

VinnyButch

greg schroeder

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Posts: 4532

(03/02/08 17:38:17)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

I'd just send the money back and say sorry for the misunderstanding. If I had spent the money and didn't have it to send back that would be a problem.

Kathy, if anyone can't tell within five minutes of knowing you that you're a a good honest gal they probably have some problems of their own. We can't make everyone happy all of the time.

WWJD

Kirk Mills

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Posts: 509

(03/02/08 18:04:14)

MVFonator

Kathy, I second that Greg, just sent it back and move on...

Kirk

AndrewK

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Posts: 232

(07/24/00 11:04:51)

MVFonator

Kathy, sounds like this is a real turd sandwhich. I think you should just give the baby his bottle and send the deposit back. That said, I think karma works both ways and you should post the individuals name so no one else has to go through what you did with "x".

Andrew Koraleski

jon healy

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Posts: 51

(03/02/08 19:16:38)

Bart-

Thanks for clarifying.

I am of the opinion that each situation has its own details, and without hearing X's side of the story, no one can say "this is the way it should be". So, because this is mainly an opinion pole of one side of an argument, my honest opinion is to take the high road. Without knowing the situation from both sides, I think it is better to give the other person the benefit of the doubt.

I do believe that returning the money would be better (given the info) for all involved, citing the fact that customers, on average, are 8 times more likely to tell others of a negative experience than a positive one. One reason people are willing to trust breeders like Gregg Maxwell, John Holland, Sean Stewart, Kathy Maynard, etc...with thousands of their dollars is because they have reputations for the highest level of integrity. Those reputations are earned through sound business practices.

I am not saying that it should be OK to break a deal. I am just saying with the info available, it would be a reasonable solution to give X their money back once the animal is sold to another.
Maybe X does not deserve to have his/her money back. I don't know. I don't even care. But, I do care if someone says "the hell with chondros" because of a bad experience.

NuWorld Chondros

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Posts: 125

(03/02/08 19:31:22)

Forum Chondro Junkie

Kathy:

I feel that you are a wonderful breeder to deal with and first and foremost have the animal's well-being in mind. I would expect nothing less than for anyone to keep the money givin to them as a deposit. A deposit is just that, a show of good faith....a faithful commitment to purchase something, it should be based on trust between both parties. If trust was the issue to begin with, then the deposit should have never been provided. It is faulty (or defaulty, hehe) to assume that after getting cold feet, one should back out of an orginally trustfilled commitment.

Futhermore, in this community and with this hobby, the safety of the animal must always come first. It is highly unreasonable for anyone to assume that an animal will arrive safely in cold weather, just because they don't trust somebody anymore. It is also unreasonable for someone to assume that the animal be shipped during cold weather, in the first place. I have animals out there right now that I have been paid for, and some with deposits, that are awaiting shipment to me. I am also holding animals, which have been paid for awaiting shipment, and also am holding animals which have deposits on them and are awaiting shipment. The goal with breeders sending me animals and with other's awaiting animals from me, is that the animals arrive safely.

X's issue is based on lack of trust and scepticism in his/her opinion, mainly because you were unresponsive (according to them, I guess). If everyone dishonored contractual commitments in this manner, verbal or written, then really there is not point in contractual obligations, payment plans, deposits etc.. and frankly this would mean, that the general population could theorethically "get out" of a mortgage, car loan, etc.. because of not trusting or feeling sceptical about the bank. I know your not a bank, but I would hope you can catch my drift. X should be held responsible for breaching the contract, verbal or written, and his/her consequence should be to forfeit the deposit (amounts above and beyond the deposit, should be bank error in your favor...based on his/her immature stupidity). X should be more adult about this and next time, get any trust issues out of the way beforehand.

I think it is unfair to claim that you have not been reachable or able to be contacted. I initially saw when you had that female up (if it is the one you are referring to) and have seen your screen name many times in the forum since then. If X was so paranoid then they should have made an attempt to contact you through the forum or by phone.

Last but not least, in my opinion, the person changed their mind and is using your having email problems and needing money, as an excuse to get out of it and is reaching really hard for what deposit they can get back.

-Carlos

Oh also, if you do sell the animal at the original price, you should refund the deposit less punitive damages.

Carlos Elizondo
cell: 202.468.3620
cetheboss@aol.com
www.nuworldchondros.com

Last Edited By: NuWorld Chondros 03/02/08 19:48:28. Edited 3 times.

TheSerpenteer

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Posts: 114

(03/02/08 20:14:33)

Forum Chondro Junkie

Lots of good points being made on both sides. I don't think people should put aside so easily the "reputation" factor either. This may not be as important to someone well established as a "known" breeder, but it plays a BIG part otherwise. Most of us who post on this forum regularly trust each other even if we haven't met face to face, or don't really know each other personally. I know I do. There is a relationship there, even if it's based on posting here from time to time.

That being said, a bad deal, even one that isn't truly the fault of the seller, can hurt future transactions in this hobby very easily. For example, I've bred and sold my share of snakes in my time in this hobby, but I'm VERY small scale. I usually do my best to have a lot of communication when selling something because people aren't going to know who I am in general, but they are trusting me. I know that one bad deal, can lead to that not being the case in a very short period of time. Check out the BOI, it's a nasty place, and I guarantee you people are much quicker to post there about a problem.

Here is my personal example. Back when albino Hondurans were still fetching a good price, I got lucky on several hets and produced some albinos when they sold as fast as you posted the ad. I had some difficult emails with an interested party who wasn't the best with English. (he was in California) We seemed to work things out either way, he seemed like a nice enough guy. So he sent me the money and I sent him the snake. When he got it, he changed completely. Kept insisting that the animal I sent him wasn't the one in the picture. Of course it was, but it didn't seem to matter. Now I had a snake that was sold, shipped, and received. I had probably 4 or 5 other people who had emailed me in the meantime, but I said it was sold. I eventually had him ship the snake back to me and gave him a full refund (minus shipping), because I just wanted it to be over with and have no ill will. I didn't want someone spouting off out there that I sold an animal falsely either. Because as a "little guy" in the hobby I think that could have been a bad situation.

This isn't exactly the same as a deposit situation, but I think I would have been just as right to keep the money. I just thought that as long as I got the snake back healthy, it was better to part ways with no hard feelings or bad words. Where I felt this example fit was the communicatoin issue also. I think that is a twist in the whole situation that Kathy is in. Because of that, and the fact that the email was a problem for sure, and not on the buyers end, I would probably have to say send the deposit back and forget about it.

And unless I'm way off here, I think Kathy would feel better overall to handle it that way.

Brian Suter

great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people

billzuk1

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Posts: 278

(03/02/08 20:33:35)

MVFonator

Well said Damon.I would not return the deposit either.The only way I would return a deposit is if something really happened to the inteneded buyer such as a unexpected event or financial incident that the buyer could not help in a resonable amount of time.Not 3 months into the deal.I personally think payment plans suck as well.I know alot of us do it and I have done it myself numerous times.You can never count on the funds coming at a certain time unless the said party said they sent it to you.Sometimes even when you bug them they tell you it will out in the mail and it never comes.Only excuses.I hate chasing people for the money.I only do payment plans for people I know now.
He said he coulden't reach you through email.I love this excuse as well.You talked to him on the phone and he coulden't call you when you didn't respond through email.I usually get the partys phone number right off the batt wheather I'm buying or selling.Sounds like they bit off more than could chew and are trying to use every excuse in the book to get out of the commitment.
I would advise everyone who offers a payment plan or offers to hold the snake that they clearly state it in there add that the deposit is non-refundable either right away or after a certain amount of time.That way you don't have to hear any grief.

CritterKeeper

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Posts: 658

(03/02/08 20:55:19)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

you pick a kid....you send the deposit.....you change your mind....hmmmmmm!!!
Partial refund maybe. So someone else wanted that animal and you say it was already sold...now you've lost another sale.
you give your word, it's your word....you get the money you asked for and they get the amimal they picked...it was agreed.
I just sent two beautiful animals and paid the shipping for a buyer and waited 2-3 months for the money, someone gave there word. and the money was sent.
.Thanks again Kathy. Trust communication reputation and your word...all very important! You can't go far in here being a bad guy so do the right thing!!!
2 cents.....Critter!
Awesome bunch of Breeders and good peeps in here this probably doesn't come up very much....I saw it at best buy, but circuit city had it cheaper, I want a refund, exchange...layaway....Chondro coupons ..cmon lets all pray not!! Peace

REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

Sssnakemom

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Posts: 976

(03/03/08 03:55:34)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

Wow, this has been such a great poll to learn from! It is definitely a situation that I will use to make things much clearer for anyone doing business with me in the future. The reason I asked for opinions, is because I am striving to be someone that people are eager to do business with - and that has a reputation both for integrity and compassion.

The reason I will not give a name of buyer X, is because this person is, in my opinion, not really aware of much of the reality of how things work in our community. They probably have not worked with a private party, only brokers (NOT our sweet Gary, but people who don't care if an animal arrives as a snakecicle, because they can write it off), and I know they have gotten burnt by sending money and never receiving an animal from someone else. I am hoping that they read this thread ... the ENTIRE thread - and learn more about what is expected, and what the realities are with a deposit/payment plan, should they ever enter into something like this again with someone.

I also want them to realize that the image they have of me is far, FAR from who I am. I know some of you wonder what I intend to do about this ... I already had my mind made up before I posted this poll, and I have not wavered in my decision. Will there be financial hardship on my part because of X backing out of this agreement based solely on their own trust issues? A resounding yes. Already HAS been very difficult. Will there be financial hardship for me to give them their entire deposit back? Another resounding YES. I have been trying very hard to get caught up on things after my heart attack in the fall, and the domino effect of this transaction has been incredibly stressful.

However ... being who I am, I do feel it is right, morally, to return the ENTIRE deposit to X. As soon as I am able to do so, after sorting out my financial damages from this debacle, I am doing just that.

Thanks to everyone who contributed here. I'd like to say that this won't make me less trusting in the future, but right now I am not sure I can say that. I do know that I will be a LOT more detailed and careful should I entertain offering a payment plan to someone I don't know, again. I know we all started out as newbies ... and we all hoped people would trust us and give us a chance. That was what I was thinking when I trusted X. Shame on them for what they did, but I cannot become spiteful in retaliation.

Live and learn ... *sigh* ...

Kathy - who has been bitten BAD by the chondro bug!! HELP!!!!

RainforestDreams

www.rainforestdreams.net/index.html

Greg Maxwell

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Posts: 13

(03/03/08 07:32:19)

MVF user

As a general rule, I do not refund deposits unless I am unable to supply the promised animal. A deposit is required for a reason- it secures a commitment from both parties. I commit to holding an animal and the buyer commits to paying for it. Under some circumstances I will apply the deposit towards another animal in the future.

<b>Greg Maxwell</b>
<br>
<a href="http://www.finegtps.com">Fine Green Tree Pythons</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.finegtps.com/Contact.htm">E.Mail</a>

bsharrah

[-]

Posts: 248

(03/03/08 08:59:48)

MVFonator

Something else to consider….

I see the point of those who feel the deposit should be refunded to essentially "make the headache go away"; however, consider the larger picture. If you refund the deposit to appease the potential buyer, you are sending a message that deposits (in general) are refundable, terms of service (should you have them) are meaningless, and you increase the likelihood that the person will enter into a payment plan with someone else and put that seller through this all over again. My guess is if you refund the deposit, X will use it for a deposit on another animal from another unsuspecting seller, only to potentially find another bogus reason to back out and demand it be returned.

I say keep the deposit and send a strong, much needed, message to the potential buyer as well as the newer members of the hobby. Will X's feelings be hurt? Yes. Will he/she think twice about entering into a commitment again? Most certainly.

Several sellers have indicated they see people backing out of payment plans more and more. These occurrences will just continue to increase if potential buyers are lead to believe their funds will be returned should they change their mind.

Bart

DavidBellis

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Posts: 67

(03/03/08 13:34:12)

Forum Chondro Junkie

Pretty much all bases have been covered at this point but I'll toss my two pennies in anyway. I think it's universally accepted in the herp world that deposits are non-refundable. I agree with Bart that refunding these people their money only encourages them to do the same thing to another seller. I personally have had numerous people ask me to hold animals this year and tell me a check was in the mail only to never have that payment arrive. I almost missed a sale to someone on these forums from this precise example. Because of this I won't hold anything without some cash in hand and once that deposit arrives it isn't going back. If the seller changes their mind that's on them, not you. If you still have the animal you agreed to sell and are willing to send it to them I see absolutely no reason why they should be entitled to a refund. I'd keep the deposit and hopefully 'X' will have learned a valuable lesson.

Ty Abrams

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Posts: 376

(03/03/08 16:23:41)

MVFonator

I had to back out ONE animal fully respecting the breeder keeping the deposit. That is just my situation. If I were you though I would much rather mail "X" back his 1-200 dollars than deal with financial confrontation.

Ty

John Romano

deposit

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Posts: 1840

(03/04/08 07:29:35)

Forum super duper Ultra Chondro!

My guess is if you refund the deposit, X will use it for a deposit on another animal from another unsuspecting seller, only to potentially find another bogus reason to back out and demand it be returned.

Bart nailed it right here. I have seen a few people back out of a sale for an "unforeseen financial problem" only to end up showing pictures of a different snake they just purchased.

We are a small community and need to respect each other. I think the primitive rules work best here. If a person doesn't respect the community they are ousted from the community.
j

Live every week like it's shark week.

jon healy

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Posts: 52

(03/04/08 10:28:41)

We still have not heard Xs side of the story. Come on "X", what say you? You don't want to be known as "x".

SeniorX

[-]

Posts: 1

(03/05/08 15:07:55)

Hey, if anyone has a problem with me they can reach me at 1-800-+++#-Off!

-X

taphillip

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Posts: 268

(03/05/08 16:13:06)

MVFonator

LMAO...sounds like we might just have gotten X's side of the story....

I think that would probably be the exact answer to refunding his deposit in this case if it were me..
Some people...
T-

Kenneth Diehl

Well....

[-]

Posts: 575

(03/05/08 17:13:27)

Forum Ultra Chondro!

Interesting Thread.....John Romano....ditto!

Ken Diehl
San Antonio

Jeff Godbold

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Posts: 275

(03/05/08 19:00:35)

MVFonator

Well, like everyone has said.......terms of sale are not binding. For me, I won't even sell an animal to someone until they have read and agreed to my terms of sale. All the fine print is contained there so there is no confusion. If they back out, they know what to expect. I also require a "non-refundable" deposit. You're due at least that for holding the animal and turning away buyers to appeal to the current prospect. Having that said, I'd refund them the extra amount paid if they were an adult or civil....never to do business with them again.

If they want to act like a 15 year with a temper tantrum, then thats when principal kicks in and I become a very hard person to deal with, LOL! Making threats and name-calling is never a way to get what you want in any circumstance, especially when the seller holds the cards.

Jeff Godbold
JAG Arboreals
jagreptile@yahoo.com

Last Edited By: Jeff Godbold 03/05/08 19:03:32. Edited 1 times.

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