i was just wondering the percentage of breeding to the exoterra 18 x 18 x 24 inch cages? for anyone that keeps there snakes in these cages and has breed
and/or tried to breed their snakes please let me know.
                        
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 SCZ Mike |
18 x 18 x 24 cages to breeding success? |
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Posts: 620 (05/17/08 17:06:21)
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-mike-
Science depends on facts the way a house depends on bricks. But science is no more a pile of facts than a house is just a pile of bricks - Henri Poincare' |
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cleve360 |
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Posts: 744 (05/17/08 17:58:23)
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I tried to breed several pairs in my 24 x 24 x 18 Exos last year, without success, but I think it was because I didn't cool adequately.
I've been told that one of the most successful breeders of all time, Eugene Bessette, kept his breeding stock in 20 gallon aquariums. He stood the aquariums upright on their side for height. They seemed to breed like mad for Eugene, so I'd guess your ExoTerras would be OK if all the other variables are covered. On the other extreme, I'm just this weekend setting up four 48 x 48 x 30 cages for my 2 breeding pairs :-) |
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BrianFischer44 |
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Posts: 330 (05/17/08 18:43:41)
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Shane Snyder keeps his whole collection in exo terra's and all his pairings were done in 24" x 24" x 18" exo's I believe.
"I'm short and angry..." -Paul August
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 Jeff Godbold |
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Posts: 357 (05/17/08 20:11:13)
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Steve Roebuck has produced two clutchesin Exo's (18' cubes). One of which was from his 9545 TW male this year.
Another is Rico Walder. He keeps (or did until recently) his entire collection in home made glass cages. I believe they are more tall than wide also. |
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aaron florian |
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Posts: 2714 (05/17/08 21:28:26)
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Let me be the first to say that Size Doesn't Matter. *cough*
I had excellent results in tubs which were 24 long x 16 high x 16 wide. Actually, the most clutches I've thrown, all of them were in that size. It looks cramped, but I had good success. I moved up to the Vision 222s, and had no luck, but I attribute that to temperature and humidity factors. I don't *prefer* the smaller enclosures, but they seem to work just as well as the breeder maxwell cages I've used. With respect to producing clutches.
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230 (c)(1) ... it's what's for breakfast |
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Mike Bair |
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Posts: 7 (05/17/08 21:55:23)
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I use 24x18x18 cages with success. Theres more than one way to skin a cat. Rob Worrell used to breed everything in glass cages. Use what you want, but make it
big enough that the two snakes you are breeding will not get stressed by it. Obviously an overly obese 2k gram female would not really work too well especially
if you are using a 1k gram male and trying to put them into something smaller than a 24x18x18. They just would not have room to move around.
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Mike Bair www.chondrodreams.com mike@chondrodreams.com |
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SCZ Mike |
thanks | |||
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Posts: 624 (05/18/08 05:05:17)
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thanks for the all feed back, i need cages in a hurry and dont have time to build any yet. i would prefer bigger cages, and i guess exo-terra is making a 24x
18x 24x inch that im going to try to get instead, a liitle more room. i wont keep m chondros, except small adult males in them forever. they would be used
for a couple (2-4 years) until i can afford to get pvc cages.
thanks again!
-mike-
Science depends on facts the way a house depends on bricks. But science is no more a pile of facts than a house is just a pile of bricks - Henri Poincare' |
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whitehillreptile |
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Posts: 19 (05/18/08 05:34:11) |
they are also coming out with a 36X18X18 and a 34X18X24 (LxWxH) either at the end of this month or at least by middle of next month. with the 34X18X24 you
could fit them three high on the metal 36" bakers rack. i dont know how soon you need them, but it may be worth the wait.
FWIW Tre' Hill
"But if you tame me, then we shall need each other. To me, you will be unique in all the world. To you, I shall be unique in all the world...You are
responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery --
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Jeff Godbold |
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Posts: 358 (05/18/08 08:46:51)
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I've seen the 24 X 18 X 18 and the 36 X 18 X 18 in person. They look awesome. They're actually out now. We have a local reptile store thats carrying
them but he's marked them up a ton. I would call Reptile dDepot, I'm sure they can get them in and their prices are the cheapest. I'm thinking of
doing the same. With a savings of around 100.00 per cage...it's defanantly got me thinking.
And with all the talk about modifying their exo terras, I decided to look up the actual cages on the ET website. Has anyone actually given their hood/tops a try? They look pretty nice and offer a heat/flourescent light combo with the "dual tops" and "compact tops". Here's the link: http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/fixtures_info.php
Last Edited By: Jeff Godbold
05/18/08 13:52:45.
Edited 2 times.
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SCZ Mike |
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Posts: 625 (05/18/08 18:03:16)
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im going through a friend in derby, ks who has a reptile pet store (tails and scales) and im going to get them at cost, i would love to get the 34x18x24
inches. that would be great!
-mike-
Science depends on facts the way a house depends on bricks. But science is no more a pile of facts than a house is just a pile of bricks - Henri Poincare' |
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Sony Raju |
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Posts: 1085 (05/19/08 04:57:25)
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wow, those are kinda small side. thats great that it works, and i could fit way more cages in my snake room.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....thanks guys.
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NathanielSmith |
Exo Terra | |||
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Posts: 3 (05/19/08 06:33:02) |
Jeff, I currently have two 18 x 18 x 24 exos, and I have utilized the dual hoods from exo terra for fluroescent lighting & supplemental heat. I've found that they solve all of my humidity issues with the exo terra enclosures as well, as I am able to maintain the proper fluxuation with a misting every other day. For me, the hoods were a much simpler solution than pursuing any modifications to the cages. And Mike, as far as breeding success in the exo terras, I have not progressed that far in my Chondro experience as of yet! Hopefully in a year or two I will have more to say on that topic! |
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Ben Team |
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Posts: 953 (05/19/08 06:37:40)
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I am preparing to duck as I write this. I just have to at least throw my argument out there...
Does the smallest box we can cram a snake into and have them breed = success? If I can get chondros to breed in a sock is that how we should start keeping them? I understand that a lot of chondro keepers far smarter than I keep chondros in small cages, and I have seen a few very successful operations in person that utilized small cages. However, I can't get by the fact that it just doesn't feel right to me. (How is that for empirical evidence-lol?) This subject is choked with anthropomorhic facets, but I know that if you locked me in a cage with a hottie I would breed her no matter how small the cage was. Doesn't mean I am 'happy' (well I probably am during the breeding...). I realize that space and the high price of caging are real factors for everyone to deal with, but shouldn't we strive to give these animals the absolute best quality of life possible, and bear the brunt of these challenges ourselves? |
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milmoejoe |
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Posts: 74 (05/19/08 08:04:16) |
Absolutely, take a look at the rest of the herp industry!
I know research has been done on other snakes measuring cortisol levels (stress indicator) in relation to enclosure size. I may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure that the levels were affected by a number of other things before reduced cage size. In fact, many did horrible in large open ended enclosures (why, I don't know- the wild is pretty open) So, thats why the racks and tubs fly pretty well. |
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Ben Team |
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Posts: 954 (05/19/08 08:34:03)
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I would love to see true peer reviewed published research showing elevated cortisol levels in properly designed big cages. I think that the notion that 'large cages' make snakes feel insecure is laughable at best, intellectually dishonest at worst. Yes, if you stick a
chondro in a bare walk in closet with a single perch in the middle it is going to feel insecure. Add plenty of cover and visual barriers to the enclosure and
you have a different story...
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cleve360 |
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Posts: 745 (05/19/08 10:09:04)
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I agree 100% with Ben on this one.
We keep neonates in a tiny, dark, plastic box for the first 6 months of its life, so it's understandable that many will have an adjustment problem when moved to a larger, empty cage. That's true even with the complex environment of a natural viv; because they have essentially grown up in a sensory deprivation chamber, the sudden onslaught of sensory data could be overwhelming. Millions of years of evolution has resulted in a chondro brain adapted to their specific natural environment. We take neonates and surround them with plastic, keep them in the dark, feed them prey they don't eat in the wild, and don't allow them to move more than 6 inches in any direction, ever. I can't believe that the extreme artificiality of that environment doesn't affect their neural development somehow, as well as the skeletal and muscular system. Neurologically we get chondros that have developed with an extreme poverty of stimuli. Also, I wonder about the incidence of prolapses and kinks increasing because the lack of any physical stimulus. Wilson's research shows that adult chondros move hundreds of yards per month throughout their individual ranges, and that doesn't take into consideration the vertical movement from daytime resting to nighttime hunting position. Females are more likely to change position each day than males. Males do a road trip during mating season. Juvies move just as much distance as adults, despite the size difference. Since from hatching to adulthood we keep them in boxes in which they can't even stretch out the full length of their bodies, it's no wonder "they never move". They have been trained not to.
Last Edited By: cleve360
05/19/08 15:24:06.
Edited 1 times.
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milmoejoe |
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Posts: 75 (05/19/08 12:52:55) |
I don't know too much about it, but I think we're essentially domesticating these animals here. So (most) things like your habitat usage, foraging
patterns, dispersal and migration are all out the window. Basic requirements were met some time ago and we have been optimizing for production since.
Ben, I agree some of those tests can be off the wall, but "properly designed" is subjective and left at the discretion of the tester. I think many of us would be limited to one or no chondros if we decided to space everything out to that highest "stress free" percentile. And, I think cortisol levels are generally measured on 1. animals new to the hobby with no captive husbandry info, and 2. those animals who struggle to live a complete lifespan or whos reproduction is inhibited, signs of stress, etc. Bigger fish to fry with all these experiments than to study these pets. Time to find a multimillionaire whos dying to learn more about his chondros 
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Jeff Godbold |
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Posts: 362 (05/19/08 17:43:55)
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Nathan,
Did you go with the "dual tops" or the "compact tops"? I'm really considering these... |
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NathanielSmith |
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Posts: 4 (05/19/08 20:08:29) |
Jeff, I went with two of the "compact tops" for each exoterra enclosure, which completely covers the top screen portion. This in turn helped to
solve my humidity problems, as well as providing (IMO) aesthetically pleasing, and functional light fixtures. My lighting set up for each enclosure consists
of fluorescent lighting (26W ReptiGlo) in one "compact top" for my day/night cycles, and black incandescant bulbs (25W NightGlo) through a thermostat
for basking heat in the other. So far, these "compact top" hoods have worked great for both for light/heat, and keeping moisture in the tanks.
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milmoejoe |
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Posts: 76 (05/19/08 20:35:00) |
I couldn't find the "dual tops" anywhere...even web searches were only in european languages!
I have the compact hood and it is very nice. |
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Rapture |
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Posts: 86 (05/19/08 22:21:51)
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-Diana
http://www.lunarboids.com |
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